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John_H
Top Rod
England
5891 Posts
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 Posted - 18/11/2009 : 10:02:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Cypry Geek
quote:
Originally posted by John_H
We are still in autumn........just
Do you alter your rigs at all now the colder weather is here or do you stick to what you've been using all year?
Yeah, I certainly do! Although the cold weather hasn't arrived yet I hope this weather continues through the rest of the Autumn and into the winter (which for me starts mid December..ish)
I do agree its not winter, however the carp aren't as active as they where. It makes sense to scale down now to me |
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Doughnut
Administrator
England
33696 Posts
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Posted - 18/11/2009 : 19:26:42
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I can't say that I do scale down anymore as it goes John...
I'm quite happy that the tackle I use is as hard as any out there for the carp to see, x-line, fluro hooklinks and so on...I feel like my gear is both strong and as inconspicuous as I can get it so I don't feel the need to change anything.
The only time I scale down when I'm carp fishing is when I fish my local, the carp only go to the mid-twenties and I know every inch of the lake. I know what I can get away with there plus the fish perhaps given a bit more of an easy time from me because they're old and special, sad ay  |
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lo30
Sharper Carper
England
310 Posts
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Posted - 18/11/2009 : 20:29:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Doughnut
I can't say that I do scale down anymore as it goes John...
I'm quite happy that the tackle I use is as hard as any out there for the carp to see, x-line, fluro hooklinks and so on...
not having a dig here matey in anyway........
whoc told you that the x-line is difficult for the carp too see?
a carp?
or is that assumption taken from the fact the "we" srtuggle to see it?
who says carp see what we see or see in the same spectrum/or in a completly different sight like heat, electric pulses....etc etc
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aminos. |
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Doughnut
Administrator
England
33696 Posts
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Posted - 18/11/2009 : 21:14:22
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lo30,
I don't assume that carp see what we can see or vice-versa in any way whatsoever and no one told me that carp find x-line difficult to see either.
I take the time to look at how my line and end tackle looks in the water and on the lakebed and do the best I can do which includes using fluro lines and/or lines pinned down the best I can get them should it suit the situation...anything I can do to make my end tackle more difficult for them to see, I do, simple as that...
Leave your stuff blatant and on full display if you so choose, it's your choice |
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lo30
Sharper Carper
England
310 Posts
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Posted - 18/11/2009 : 21:41:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Doughnut
I take the time to look at how my line and end tackle looks in the water and on the lakebed
yeah i know what your saying but.......
is what or more importantly how you see(i.e spectrum)what a carp see's robin??????
what looks completely invisable to you may for some reason due to how a carp see's stand out like a sore thumb to a carp.
like i said earlier, not having a dig....but i'm confused as to why you think that because you cant see it a carp cant when there eye is nothing like ours. |
aminos. |
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Doughnut
Administrator
England
33696 Posts
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Posted - 18/11/2009 : 21:46:27
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As I've already said I don't think that, I do the best I can to my eyes, I don't get your confusion with that? I can't see through a carps eyes so I do the best that I can under the circumstances.
If I happen to be born as a carp in my next life then I'll try to come back as carper in the life after that and let you all know what's what |
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John_H
Top Rod
England
5891 Posts
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Posted - 18/11/2009 : 22:15:30
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| It's impossible to tell what a carp can see, you have to judge through your own vision. |
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lo30
Sharper Carper
England
310 Posts
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Posted - 18/11/2009 : 22:34:33
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quote:
Originally posted by John_H
1... It's impossible to tell what a carp can see
2...you have to judge through your own vision.
1...yes i agree and its surely alot different to what and how we see.
2...and if were judging through our own vision that is most probably as far from what a carp see's as is imaginable then whats the point....
now i am not for one moment saying i know different from anyone else or anything, but surely were wasting our time doing these rig/line sighting observations as we have a completely different eye from a carp and our eye is in air and a carps in water(we can see in water but not like we do out of it), if we put our heads in the murky lake water (obviously not all are like this) we wouldn't see an inch into it.
impossible to fathom out what tackle looks like submerged to a carp, but is it worth us deciding upon what we see? |
aminos. |
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John_H
Top Rod
England
5891 Posts
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Posted - 18/11/2009 : 23:04:40
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I really don't see your point. Unless you look at the rig via an underwater camera or through goggles you aint gonna see what it looks like underwater. Even then you are only seeing what it looks like on the spot you have the rig and the bottom may be different where you are casting, and even then carp have a different set of eyes to us.
Our only way of trying to blend a rig in is by using our own sight, by making things as inconspicuous as possible. |
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Doughnut
Administrator
England
33696 Posts
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Posted - 18/11/2009 : 23:08:13
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quote:
Originally posted by lo30
yes i agree and its surely alot different to what and how we see.
really, how do you know for sure?
quote:
and if were judging through our own vision that is most probably as far from what a carp see's as is imaginable then whats the point....
now i am not for one moment saying i know different from anyone else or anything, but surely were wasting our time doing these rig/line sighting observations as we have a completely different eye from a carp and our eye is in air and a carps in water(we can see in water but not like we do out of it), if we put our heads in the murky lake water (obviously not all are like this) we wouldn't see an inch into it.
impossible to fathom out what tackle looks like submerged to a carp, but is it worth us deciding upon what we see?
Why bother trying you mean? because you do, it's all part of the game...you do the best you can with what you can see and what you know from your readings and observations over the years but I guess we could not bother trying purely because we don't know 100% what the carp can and can't see, you don't seem to be going anywhere with this... |
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Woodzzz
Top Rod
United Kingdom
15009 Posts
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Posted - 19/11/2009 : 08:32:40
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I'd like to know of some hard evidence on why scaling down works in the winter.
And I'm not talking scientific mumbo jumbo, I'm talking actual captures, prolonged winter action on a water, some tangible evidence that fining everything down makes the difference that's being claimed.
Because all my best winters have involved a size 6 Series 5 in some form or another.
The way I see it, the carp slow down a hell of a lot in winter so you can actually 'get away' with a lot more. That mostly involves noise. I've noticed how 'ringing the dinner bell' and recasting can spark them into life more often than not. It must be getting colder, because I had to 'make them' have it this week to get the torpid gits to venture from their hiding place.
So yeah. I've plenty of evidence from my own fishing and from watching others successes in winter that this 'fining down' theory isn't quite what it's made out to be.
And before you say 'but match anglers do it'. I think you'll find the difference in how a bait behaves when attached to 2lb mono instead of 4lb mono is the main reason for that. |
Dreaming of naked carp and big fat women |
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Doughnut
Administrator
England
33696 Posts
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Posted - 19/11/2009 : 09:23:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Woodzzz
I'd like to know of some hard evidence on why scaling down works in the winter.
I'm not sure that most anglers actually do it because it works, more the fact that it's a chance to simply scale down and perhaps be a bit more sporting? no weed no pads and so on... |
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lowey
Top Rod
England
12612 Posts
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Posted - 19/11/2009 : 09:45:46
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I can't say i'd scale things down. Then again i would'nt know if it made a difference, as i never have good winter fishing 
Lowey. |
D'ya know what i mean! |
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John_H
Top Rod
England
5891 Posts
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Posted - 19/11/2009 : 09:50:33
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I guess its all a matter of personal confidence, plus the nature of the particular water you are fishing. Also the size of the carp you are targetting.
I remember one winter I fished with a couple of friends, I figured out that the carp where sitting mid-watter so targetted them on zigs, I made sure that i was fishing as fine as possible with small hooks and light lines, my friends weren't quite so careful and fished quite heavily. I ended up with 14 carp from Jan-March, they caught one between them. Either I was lucky or the fine tactics paid off. Now I know that when the line is running through the water it is more visable, but i''m sure on the lake bed it makes a difference to. I know from my own fishing i've used my summer rigs in winter and struggled, only to fine down and start catching. This is probably because i'm fishing for doubles rather than big carp. |
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lo30
Sharper Carper
England
310 Posts
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Posted - 19/11/2009 : 10:09:48
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carp are cold blooded and obviously are more efficent in warmer/warm water.
the cold/colder water has an effect on there systems, there senses become less sensitive, there eye sight will not be as good as it is in warm/warmer water, so why do we scale down?????
its another common misconception imho.
in fact there is proof that we should maybe scale "UP" as due to the carp using more aerobic muscles when in cold/colder water therefore has the ability to swim faster and more powerfully.
quote:
Originally posted by Doughnut
quote:
Originally posted by lo30
yes i agree and its surely alot different to what and how we see.
really, how do you know for sure?
i, we dont but there are a few wise men over the years that deem that carp use a type of i.r in there vision, not like what our eyes see.
objects give of thermal heat radiation, especially living creatures, makes perfect sense when searching for things in what at times must be pure darkness.
quote:
Originally posted by Doughnut
you don't seem to be going anywhere with this...
if they do see in i.r and thus use thermal heat radiation given off by objects to see, then dont matter what your line, rigs....or whatever..etc etc look like to you in the edge as if there is a temperture difference in the said items to the lake bed, weed etc they will stand out like a sore thumb mate.
pinning things down granted, yes i fully agree.
trying to hide.......??????? are we achieving anything??????
probably not.
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aminos. |
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Doughnut
Administrator
England
33696 Posts
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Posted - 19/11/2009 : 10:58:28
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quote:
Originally posted by lo30
there eye sight will not be as good as it is in warm/warmer water, so why do we scale down?????
Carp will see better in the winter time due to the clearer waters...
quote:
if they do see in i.r and thus use thermal heat radiation given off by objects to see, then dont matter what your line, rigs....or whatever..etc etc look like to you in the edge as if there is a temperture difference in the said items to the lake bed, weed etc they will stand out like a sore thumb mate.
carp don't see in IR instead they have full colour vision which ranges from very good to poor depending on the conditions. What colours they can see is dependent on the effect water has on light and colour and that is dependent on depths as much as anything else.
Leave your line on show if you want or hide it as much as you can, which might include using fluro lines, it's up to you lo..I know which I prefer, I get very few line bites (unless I want em) and I get the odd real bit too...seemingly trying to convince people that they're clutching at straws for concealing their tackle seems quite bizaar to me. |
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Bream_Boy
Top Rod
England
2041 Posts
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Posted - 19/11/2009 : 11:16:27
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What is the difference between pinning things down and trying to hide it?
As for the temperature situation. How long does it take for a solid to reach the mean temperature of its liquid surroundings? More importantly what about the difference between near and far infrared. Near Infrared (most evidence suggests this is carp's eyesite) is very closely linked to what "we" see (assumung we are not pissed or have our eyes shut). From what I can remember reading (I have slept since then.....), Infrared is a huge spectrum and to assume that being able to see in infrared means than the fish can see in thermal imaging would be incredibly naieve. Because they can see at one end of the spectrum (near infrared) does not mean they can see at the other end (far infrared).
Far infrared radiation is thermal where as the near infrared - that fish have - is not.
Now I have looked into this a few times when I was bored and needed something read to get me off to sleep, and basically there is tonnes of evidence for carp having near infrared, but none at all (other than circumstantial - or anglers on forums thinking that becasue they have NIR vision they also have FIR vision) for them having far infrared. Which in reality menas the chances of them being able to see temperature differences is negligible.
I have used fluoro before, and done very well on it - but I used it purly for the abrasion resistance and the fact it sinks like a brick so is down and out of the way.
Even if they can see it I don't care, I would rather they can see something and avoid it, then have something invisible running bowstring tight through the swim that they swim in to a freak out. I don't think it is invisible under water, but less obvious certainly particularly when pinned to the bottom and slackened off. |
Respect is not a God given right, but something to be earned |
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Doughnut
Administrator
England
33696 Posts
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Posted - 19/11/2009 : 11:18:07
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Yea there is a difference between near and far IR as it happens, I believe from what I've read that most animals including us do use near-IR to a small degree...as for temperature of lines and baits that have been in water for a while, do we really need to go there?
Edit>> just wanted to add something.
As it happens I don't like knowing exactly what carp can and can't see as I prefer the mystery, but over time I've found myself reading up stuff all over the place, the net, books and mags. You'll find all kinds of conflicting studies and ideas, good luck with sorting out the wheat from the chaff, as an angler you're better off not knowing in my view, a bit of mystery is better. IMO you shouldn't be convinced that carp are useless swimming dumb lumps by anything that you might read, if you take that attitude then what are doing chasing these fish, just getting away from the wife? and also how often do these crafty buggers or is it deaf dumb and blind buggers make us look proper dumb?
It's starting to slide a bit off topic now anyway so I'll just go back to John said, I don't scale my gear down from now onwards but I suppose I do give extra care to hiding anything under the water from view...it makes me feel like I'm trying rather than just sitting there all dumbarsed, if sitting and doing nowt is good for you and you still catch a stack of carp then happy days |
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Bream_Boy
Top Rod
England
2041 Posts
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Posted - 19/11/2009 : 11:33:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Doughnut
do we really need to go there?
Nope  |
Respect is not a God given right, but something to be earned |
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Doughnut
Administrator
England
33696 Posts
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Posted - 19/11/2009 : 12:09:21
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Here's one for those interested, it includes some detailed stuff on the carps eyesight...Simon defo knows his stuff so it's a good reference I'd say apart from him disagreeing with me about their eyesight in the dark, he knows a bit more than me so 
http://www.carpology.net/downloads/Tactics1.pdf |
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lo30
Sharper Carper
England
310 Posts
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Posted - 19/11/2009 : 13:02:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Doughnut
quote:
Originally posted by lo30
there eye sight will not be as good as it is in warm/warmer water, so why do we scale down?????
Carp will see better in the winter time due to the clearer waters...
carp are cold blooded creatures, there body temperture drops as the water temperture drops, they slow down and there brain doesn't work as effiently as it does when in warmer/warm water.
its level of eye sight is not a honed when in warmer water, weather the water is clearer or not.
i just cant get my head round how you for one moment you think that how a human see's something whilst standing in fresh air looking into water has any baring on what a carp swimming in water sees.
quote:
Originally posted by Bream_Boy
What is the difference between pinning things down and trying to hide it?
i ensure my tackle is pinned down, not from sight but from touch, its for me down to the resistance of the line in the water/vibration of the line and the possible tension in relation to the resistance provied by the water rather than them seeing my fishing line and thinking "oh it that x-line/berkley/sensor (or whatever line) user again)", but maybe i just have spent enough time fishing for and watching carp feed and have a few thoughts that i have come to a conclusion rather with than just listening to what we get told by something/someone. i for one find it interesting how its believed that a carp can distinguish an item of end tackle amoungst the other rubbish on the lake bed anyway, with its pea sized brain.
granted simon does know a thing or two about carp, but his test are done generally in a small tank or pond, in such a small environment things would probably be evident to a carp weather its noticed it different, carp dont have a thought process, so it wouldn't of thought thats different, be it by sight or another chemical/electromagnetic trigger its picked up, in which case it still wouldn't of mattered weather it was camo'd up to our eye.
quote:
Originally posted by Doughnut
seemingly trying to convince people that they're clutching at straws for concealing their tackle seems quite bizaar to me.
consealment i'm all for as i had said before and in this post in answer to the section i quoted out of bream boys post, consealment from touch is the one imho rather than consealment from sight.
makes me giggle when i think about people hiding there tackle from carp and as mr kieth moors has pointed out in the past that this talk takes place and 99% of anglers lob out a rig with a metre long length of leadcore or thick tubing on that must stand out like a sore thumb to these carp that the anglers have been trying to hide there gear from. these anglers are saying they need to hide tackle and then point it out with a massive leader, can they see the end tackle????? if so they can see your thick leader material.
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aminos. |
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Doughnut
Administrator
England
33696 Posts
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Posted - 19/11/2009 : 13:20:18
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| You're still going nowhere with this as far as I can see, other than round and round in circles. Fish how you want as long you're happy, I know I am and I'll continue hiding my line or using line that is as inconspicous as possible and trying to hide anything else that the carp might see the best I can, it's all good as far as I'm concerned.....Good luck with your confusion lo |
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Noc
Administrator
England
11350 Posts
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Posted - 27/01/2010 : 22:22:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Woodzzz
As we roll into Autumn, I thought we could start a forum Rotary Letter about carp fishing during this period. Towards the end of December, I'll begin a Winter one -
Well???
Mind you, I suppose you didn't say which December, did you??? LOL
Noc.
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Fail to prepare, prepare to fail. |
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Woodzzz
Top Rod
United Kingdom
15009 Posts
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Posted - 28/01/2010 : 09:07:03
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Waste of time Noc. I ain't been out and nor has anyone else. Hardly been on here, either
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Dreaming of naked carp and big fat women |
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Noc
Administrator
England
11350 Posts
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Posted - 28/01/2010 : 15:42:34
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What no tips on cordless drill and jigsaw use or a step by step guide on how to build your own igloo???  .
Noc. |
Fail to prepare, prepare to fail. |
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Woodzzz
Top Rod
United Kingdom
15009 Posts
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Posted - 28/01/2010 : 16:42:42
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| Total Carp (out tomorrow) has my last carp session in it! |
Dreaming of naked carp and big fat women |
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Noc
Administrator
England
11350 Posts
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Posted - 28/01/2010 : 17:16:53
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I see Ed is in this months Carpworld too .
Noc. |
Fail to prepare, prepare to fail. |
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carpmac
Top Rod
England
845 Posts
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Posted - 31/01/2010 : 19:54:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Woodzzz
Total Carp (out tomorrow) has my last carp session in it!
........... yo Matt!! .....just read your boilie article in TC and
as usual you made it interesting and got the old grey matter ticking over with idea's...cheers m8 and heres to the next one..
....ps: Nice looking common to boot.. |
FORDWICH CARP....COME TO DADDY !!! |
Edited by - carpmac on 31/01/2010 19:56:00 |
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Woodzzz
Top Rod
United Kingdom
15009 Posts
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Posted - 08/02/2010 : 21:12:27
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Cheers carpmac. I've a story-type piece about catching a good 'un under the ice in Cemex Carp & Coarse Fishing this month too. Actually based around a Diary entry on here!
I thought the pieces by Ed (Betteridge) recently have been a cracking read. It's great to see Paisley back at the helm of Carpworld.
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Dreaming of naked carp and big fat women |
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yabbadabbadoo
Sharper Carper
United Kingdom
399 Posts
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Posted - 08/02/2010 : 22:54:15
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| i to beleive that carp see quite well and there fore try to camoflague or blend in my line end tackle to the lake bed as best as possible, our eyes can see below water quite well in clear well lit water, objects and colours ect but the deeper you go the darker it gets the less you can see so to a certain point. I base my fishing around this,i remember fishing carpthagena about 4 years ago and prebaiting a margin spot in about 6 feet of water for about 2 months before i fished it the fish had polished the spot it was glowing. Well silly me the first time i fished it i left my leadcore on and a dark hooklink the fish cleaned me out totaly but left the hookbait. When i looked myself at the spot i could see my rig sticking out like sore a thumb .For the next couple of hours i watched about 3 fish come to with in 3-4 feet of the spot then spooking off so i removed the leadcore changed the dark hooklink and recast and prebaited the spot well guess what i nailed one . |
happy days shun |
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The Rotary Thread
